keeping a diary – Sophie Neville

Author Interview: Sophie Neville

by Francesca Tyer –

How old were you when you first read Arthur Ransome’s books? Did you have a favourite storyline or character?

My father devoured the Swallows and Amazons books as they were published in the 1930s. I was a slow reader but must have started the series aged about ten or eleven as I’d read seven of the twelve by the time we arrived in the Lake District to make the film in 1973. I enjoyed the practical aspects of the books and most readily identified with Mate Susan, although I counted all the characters my friends. Ransome published thirty other books. Some are heavy going, but I enjoyed his autobiography.

Sophie Neville as a child ~ photo: Martin Neville

Have you re-read the books since your childhood? If so, how has your perception of the books and the characters, in particular Titty, changed?

I’ve re-read most of the books in the Swallows and Amazons series and gain something new each time I read Swallows and Amazons, recently appreciating how important Titty’s imagination was to progressing the story. Her ideas take the plot forward. I ended up writing an article on how Swallows and Amazons can be seen as an allegory to missionary work undertaken by Arthur Ransome’s great aunts, one of whom received a Boxer arrow in her bonnet for her efforts in China.

Simon West and Sophie Neville on Peel Island in 1973

Do you think playing Titty influenced your own personality? If so, how?

Titty helped me to look beyond the saucepans and concentrate on creative endeavors rather than getting bogged down by management and administration. Acting in the film instilled in me a work ethic, responsibility and striving for excellence. Looking back, the part was a huge burden to lay on the shoulders of a twelve-year-old but it was worth it. The film has had an enduring quality and is still broadcast today. I find constant interest when I’m in social or sporting situations. For me, it has truly been a case of ‘Swallows and Amazons Forever!’

Sophie Neville rowing to Cormorant Island — Sophie Neville as Titty and Stephen Grendon as Roger rowing to Cormorant Island

Do you remember what you wanted to be before you became an actress? Did a writing career ever interest you as a child?

I acted professionally from the age of ten until I was twenty-one, going into television production at the BBC before I became a writer. I’ve also worked as a safari guide, wildlife artist and – thanks to Titty – as a cartographer. You can see a few maps I drew on my website here.

I’ve undertaken quite a bit of charity work, fundraising and acting as webmaster for The Waterberg Trust. I can’t remember having strong career ambitions as a child but knew art to be my strongest subject. I have a visual brain that flits about. Keeping a diary and constant letter writing has helped me develop my writing and has given me a huge quantity of material to draw upon.

Suzanna Hamilton with Sophie Neville as Titty busy writing the ship’s log

What led/inspired you to become a producer?

Claude Whatham was a ground-breaking director who inspired all those around him, but directing became a viable option at Opera Camp, annual amateur productions we took part in over our summer holidays as teenagers. I began directing plays at university and developed a burning desire to direct for television, always ‘looking for the shot.’ By producing documentaries, I got to direct and put them together, editing voice-overs into a narrative arc. I would now like to adapt my own stories for film, so have Final Draft software on my laptop and Witness Films Ltd registered as a UK company, but although I have a couple of ideas out to tender, I’ve been concentrating on polishing my historical novels.

The director and cast of Swallows and Amazons — Director Claude Whatham with his cast of Swallows in 1973

I’ve read that before filming Swallows and Amazons, you were in a production of Cider with Rosie. Was playing Titty anything like your experience of playing Eileen Brown?

Claude Whatham directed bother Cider With Rosie (1971) and Swallows and Amazons (1974) so the experience was similar. I also appeared in a Weetabix commercial he made in the Cotswolds. All three productions were set in roughly the same period, but Titty’s costumes, designed by Emma Porteous, were easiest to wear. Cider With Rosie was the most daunting production as I had to play the piano, which required three days of intensive practice. Titty only had to draw, write and row a boat, which was much more my thing.

Titty working on the chart - copyright StudioCanal — Titty working on the chart

Working with Virginia McKenna was amazing. Hugely inspirational and one of our most iconic British film actresses, she taught me a great deal – and still does.

Virginia McKenna playing Mother in Swallows and Amazons

What were your favourite and least favourite parts of the filming process?

We loved eating iced buns on set but hated hanging around in the cold. There was a lot of waiting for clouds to pass in the Lake District where I spent days clad in nothing but a thin cotton dress and enormous pair of navy blue gym knickers. I became more interested in the technical aspects of filming rather than acting, which for us children was more a case of ‘Let’s pretend.’

Claude Whatham showing the 16mm camera to Simon West and Sophie Neville. Sue Merry and Denis Lewiston. — Claude Whatham showing the 16mm camera to Simon West and Sophie Neville. Sue Merry and Denis Lewiston can be seen behind us.

What were your first impressions of the Lake District? Had you ever been to the Lake District before filming Swallows and Amazons?

My parents had taken me to the Lake District as a three-year-old and loved going themselves, so it was a treasured destination in my family. I was dazzled by the lakes and mountains. Holly Howe (Bank Ground Farm) above Coniston Water is a very special place. I love gazing up into the Langdales and walking up into the fells. We were members of the Steam Boat Association, something I have written about in my book, Funnily Enough and I returned over Lockdown to appear in BBC Antiques Roadshow when Swallows and Amazons was profiled.

Sophie Neville aged four — Sophie Neville aged three in the Lake District

How detailed was the diary you wrote during the filming? Had you ever thought about turning your notes into a book before you were persuaded to write The Secrets of Filming Swallows and Amazons?

I’ve put every page of my diary kept whilst making Swallows and Amazons on my blog at Sophieneville.net/swallowsandamazons My mother kept them, nagging me to write them up for years. Finding the time was difficult but I got there in time for the 40^th Anniversary of the film’s release when StudioCanal brought out a DVD with an Extras package we appeared in.

Diary kept filming 'Swallows and Amazons 16th May 1973

What was the writing process like? eg. challenges

The challenge with adapting a diary is to eliminate inevitable repetition but something extraordinary or disastrous happened everyday whilst filming Swallows and Amazons. With so much filmed afloat or on islands, it was an incredibly difficult production to work on and made a story in itself. I enjoyed finally bringing the book to life and interacting with readers who so kindly sent in reviews and comments. Some love hearing what we all went on to do after the film. One reader did not want to know, but I included this as there were many interesting links and coincidences, especially since I worked on the BBC serialisation of Coot Club and The Big Six.

and favourite moments?

It is very exciting when the first paperbacks arrive. Every author enjoys unpacking that box.

The first edition of The Making of Swallows and Amazons

What is the most surprising thing you’ve learned as a writer?

I never guessed how many times I would need to re-work my books. Each one is read though and edited repeatedly, on and on until it flows well and reads flawlessly. Recording the audiobooks has opened up a whole new world. I narrated them myself, which was far more complicated than I imagined. It’s difficult to digest the fact that I am on Spotify and the audiobookstore. Funnily Enough is selling well on audible.

Do you have any events lined up to promote the book?

Yes, I list the events on my website sophieneville.net/events I’m hoping to be signing copies at the Royal Thames Yacht Club in April and Southampton International Boat Show in September.

I often give illustrated talks on how Swallows and Amazons was made and Q&As at cinema screenings. I’ve begun running workshops on photographing books at literary conferences, which is proving popular.

Giving a talk on how sailing sequences are filmed

Could you tell me a little bit about your other books?

Funnily Enough and Ride the Wings of Morning are illustrated memoirs that follow on from The Making of Swallows and Amazons, which is now in its 2^nd edition.

Merry Christmas Everyone and Write Well are anthologies to which I have contributed a chapter. I have written Forewords to four books, including the Czech version of Swallowdale by Arthur Ransome, and Swallows, Amazons and Coots by Julian Lovelock. I have a couple of non-fiction books waiting in the wings including The Secrets of Filming Coot Club. The first three chapters have already been included in DVD extras for the remastered version of the DVD.

Swallows And Amazons Forever! (Coot Club & The Big Six) SPECIAL EDITION [DVD]

Are you currently writing anything, either to do with Arthur Ransome or entirely separate?

I often write articles for magazines, which have connections to Swallows and Amazons, and have completed two historical novels, which are set in East Africa.

Finally, could you tell me about your other pursuits such as your litter picking, art and the combination of the two? Have art and conservation always interested you?

I have always been passionate about wildlife conservation, often giving talks about otters since they are the key indicator species we have been active in protecting as a family. I am taking part in the Race for Reading by litter picking whilst walking the coast to raise funds for the UK literacy charity SchoolReaders. I sometimes make collages out of the rubbish to attract attention to the composition of sea plastic. You can see examples of this and my paintings on Instagram @Sophienevilleauthor

Auditioning to play the part of Titty Walker in the original film of Arthur Ransome’s book ‘Swallows and Amazons’ in 1973

Fifty years ago this day, auditions were being held at 10 Long Acre near Leicester Square in London for parts in the original film of Arthur Ransome’s book ‘Swallows and Amazons’ produced by Richard Pilbrow of Theatre Projects with the help of Neville C Thompsom and financed by Anglo EMI Films. It was to star Dame Virginia McKenna, but the leading roles were all for children under the age of thirteen who needed to be able to row and sail.

Producer Richard Pilbrow with Neville C Thompson on Derwentwater in the Lake District in 1973 — Richard Pilbrow and Neville C Thompson in the Lake District in 1973

I recently received a Tweet from the award-winning author Wendy Clarke who wrote: ‘Funnily enough (many, many years ago) I auditioned for the film role of Titty Walker… I would have been 12 then. I didn’t belong to a sailing club and couldn’t sail! Amazed I got the audition!’

When I asked if she could tell me more, she replied: ‘I have next to no memory of the day so wouldn’t have very much to say about it! I’m seeing my mum tomorrow and have asked her to bring her 1973 diary!’ Here it is:

Wendy Clarke’s mother, Joy Matthews, kept a diary every day of her life

‘This is where I went for the audition apparently. Was that the same place as you?’

It was! I remember the actual room.

Wendy explained that her mother, Joy Matthews, ‘has written a diary every day since I can remember (even if it’s just to say what the weather was like). Over the years it’s been very useful. She is now 91. I think this was the photo we sent!’

Wendy Clarke, aged 12, who auditioned for a part

‘I’ve just been reading your post and laughing at the escapades during the shooting of S&A. Can I really picture myself in your shoes… if I’m honest, no! I would have been too much of a scary cat. Especially when the mast broke!‘

A friend of mine also auditioned for ‘Swallows and Amazons’ but she couldn’t remember any details. Simon West, who ended up being cast as Captain John, told me that he met Richard and Neville for a first audition at his sailing club. His sister, Ginny, who was keen on acting, spotted a notice, but his father was amazed when he said he would also like to be considered for a role in ‘Swallows and Amazons’. Aged eleven, he was a little young for the part of John, but he was bright, practical with a passion for sailing. Kit Seymour and Lesley Bennett, who would eventually play the Amazons, also heard about the opportunity at their respective sailing clubs. Richard Pilbrow was very keen to find children who could sail and were able to swim well.

Kay Frances Ecclestone wrote to say she saw a, “poster in my sailing club. If it was in 1973, I’d have been 12 or 13 & had been sailing since I was 9 & just started helming in races.” This was at “Pagham Yacht Club which was where my family sailed… I didn’t (audition) although I seriously thought about it, but I didn’t want my long hair bobbed! I can remember clearly being at the Club noticeboard and excitedly reading the poster. I loved all the Arthur Ransome books and spent my first ever sailing prize that year (which was a book voucher) on buying the final in the series of Puffin paperbacks that I didn’t have. I have no idea why my Mum didn’t point out that my hair would grow back!” She is still racing her Scorpion dinghy today. “The original Puffins (with some replacement Puffins as the original fell apart from constant reading) in my AR book collection.”

Wendy wrote: ‘Second interview… so I couldn’t have done too badly! (Probably still hadn’t mentioned the small matter of not being able to sail)… I may not have got the part but least I got to go to Madame Tussauds and the Planetarium!’

My parents only received a letter asking if I would like to be considered for a part on 26th March 1973. It was addressed to my father who was on an export mission to South Africa and the envelope lay unopened in our hall for a while. Luckily it was printed with the Theatre Projects logo and Mum did open it. We collected Dad from Heathrow and drove straight to Leicester Square and walked through China Town. I remember Claude looking rather intense as he asked me questions. He wanted to know what my favourite television progamme was. I don’t think he asked me to read anything, which was just as well as I would have been hopeless. Did he ask if I could row or sail? I might have told him that I could swim well, as I’d just gained a bronze life saving medal, one of my few achievements to date.

I too was taken to Madam Tausauds when the ticket took you to the neighbouring Planetarium as a double bill. We possibly went after another visit to London for ‘Swallows and Amazons’.

Wendy returned to Theatre Projects’s offices in Long Acre for a third interview. She was doing well:

I was fortunate in that I’d worked for Claude Whatham in 1971 when he had cast me as Eileen Brown in the first BBC adaptation of Laurie Lee’s book ‘Cider With Rosie’, set in the 1920s. We later found out that Claude liked working with actors like Brenda Bruce who he had employed on previous occasions. I’m not sure when he joined the production of ‘Swallows and Amazon’ but it could have been late in the day as he was the second director taken on board.

We were told that 1,800 children had been considered for the six parts in ‘Swallows and Amazons’. Most of them had been members of sailing clubs. Claude had not wanted to visit stage schools but Suzanna Hamilton, who was cast as Mate Susan, had been going to the Anna Scher after school Theatre Club in Islington, which he may have visited. I had first met him at a drama club in Stroud in Gloucestershire in 1971.

Our final audition was held afloat, when about twenty children spent a weekend on a scout boat at Burnham-on-Crouch in Essex. This can’t have been an easy location for my parents to get to but Richard and Claude wanted to see how confident we all were on the water. We were taken dinghy sailing in wet and windy conditions. I remember Kit and her twin sister Alison Seymour facing the waves without a qualm. Richard bought his children Abigail and Fred along and I knew Sten Grendon who had also been in ‘Cider With Rosie’. We might have travelled to Essex together. The five girls up for the part of Titty all shared a cabin. I thought I was too old, too tall and too gangly. We were not aware of a screen test but Richard’s assistant Molly took super 8 cine footage.

Meanwhile, Wendy Clarke had been taken to Cumbria by her parents: ‘We’d gone to the Lake District to get a feel for it. Hadn’t heard anything about interview so Mum rang and, as she so very succinctly put, ‘that’s that’. That made me laugh.’

I noticed they had been to see the waterfall where we eventually shot a scene on the way to visit the charcoal burners.

Wendy wrote: ‘That May, mentioned in Mum’s diary extract, was my very first time in the Lake District. It was only years later, in my forties, that I visited again and fell in love with it. Maybe I’m destined to sail that boat after all! So lovely to ‘meet’ you (even though I probably hated you at the time for taking my part (which I would have been rubbish at anyway!) x

Wendy Clarke, whose website can be found here

‘My husband has just said, ‘why did you not tell me any of this?’ I was probably just relieved I didn’t have to get in a boat! In later life I discovered I was better at novel writing than acting!’

She added: ‘I’ve just found something else that links us. We both entered our books into the Flash Fiction Novel Opening Competition. My debut psychological thriller What She Saw, which was set in the Lake District, won it in 2017!’ I had a story shortlisted in 2022, which was encouraging.

Claude Whatham with the children he eventually cast as the Swallows

I would love to hear from others who auditioned all those years ago – do email me or leave a comment below. I have written a little more about the gaining the part from my perspective on an earlier post here.

We are approaching the 50th Anniversary of the filming, which began on 14th May 1973 – only a few weeks after my first interview. I’ve been asked to give a few talks on ‘The Making of Swallows and Amazons’, which I will detail on my Events page. You can find different editions of my books listed here